On The Church

by Ivy Beckwith

While Emergent is about many things – what it’s about is probably as diverse as the people who identify with us – one of those many things we are about is the church. Many of us are about figuring out what the church of the 21st century ought to be.

Right now I have an ambiguous relationship with the church. Since leaving my church position at the end of 2004 I have not affiliated with another community. I identify with the community that is Solomon’s Porch; I’ve attended my parents’ Presbyterian church in Florida; visited a church in Brooklyn where a friend is the pastor (will be there this coming Sunday); and celebrated the start of a new church in the area on Easter Sunday. But on most Sundays when I’m home in Minneapolis church for me has been coffee and the New York Times. And there has not been much I have missed about the church experience until recently. First, I found myself missing the Eucharist. Celebrating and participating in the Eucharist came to be one of my most meaningful ministry experiences in my last church. Repeating the words of the liturgy and feeding the congregational flock were experiences that kept me in the vicinity of God when I was ready to walk away forever. I came to understand the centrality of this rite to the church in a way I’d never seen in my liturgy free past. I sorely miss that experience.

And I’m starting to miss the community. I’m starting to miss seeing people on Sunday morning or evening and am starting to feel a little isolated because of it. Missing these 2 elements of church life will ultimately drive me back to more regular church attendance in good time.

But I must admit that every time I think about finding a new church home I’m stopped dead in my tracks by the question of “what church could I possibly go to?” I don’t ask this question because of a lack of churches where I live. I live in, perhaps, one of the most churched areas of the world. It’s a question of finding a church which resonates with my sensibilities of what the church should be all about (sensibilities that are more felt than delineated in a logical list) and where I am not asked to join in or reveal too much of myself too quickly. When I go back to church I want to be left alone for a while. Not many churches understand this.

I’ll go back to church eventually. The very fact that I’m entertaining thoughts of going back is progress. And I’ll continue to ruminate on (as will the Emergent leadership team in upcoming conversations) what do I think about church and what it’s meant to be in our times.

Comments

[Sivin]

"While Emergent is about many things – what it’s about is probably as diverse as the people who identify with us – one of those many things we are about is the church. Many of us are about figuring out what the church of the 21st century ought to be."

Spot on Ivy! That's what made me feel like connecting with the conversation all the way from here in Malaysia!

Anyway, if you feel like coming for a Holiday you're most welcome ... we're working on the ideas you've shared in your book! It's hard work!

[Kyle]

"But I must admit that every time I think about finding a new church home I’m stopped dead in my tracks by the question of “what church could I possibly go to?” It’s a question of finding a church which resonates with my sensibilities of what the church should be all about (sensibilities that are more felt than delineated in a logical list)..."

Ivy, since resigning from my position, i have experienced the same reasoning and emotions.
Blessings to you

[bill]

For many it seems critical to go through this kind of "missing" process. I suppose it's a sort of experiential deconstruction. Take your time. It seems you have the kind of relationships that you can trust to keep an eye on the process.

[bill]

For many I think it is/has been extremely helpful to go through a "missing" phase. I suppose this a sort of experiential deconstruction. Take your time. It would seem you are in the kind of relationships in which your friends won't let you fall off the edge of the world.

[Dignan]

"But I must admit that every time I think about finding a new church home I’m stopped dead in my tracks by the question of “what church could I possibly go to?”"

Ivy,
I too, can very much relate to your remarks. My wife and I have recently spent quite a bit of time visiting other churches with the desire to go to a church in our local community rather than drive a ways away.

However, during this process, I have discovered that many of my opinions about worship styles, music, preaching,etc, are simply snobbish aesthetic sentiments that completely miss the point of church.

It is true community that I desire, regardless of whether it is high church, low church, organ with hymns, or contemporary worship music. That stuff really doesn't matter.

I'm not so sure that a church should "resonate with my sensibilities" to be a good or the right church for me.

Peace,
Dignan

[Zane Anderson]

Hi Ivy,

In your search for a home church do consider another kind of "home church" - aka: a house church. Just meet as the church with any number of others in any place at any time. Sounds to easy, no?

Christians are to be welcome wherever other Christians are - period. Technically, there is nothing to join because being joined to Christ makes you a member of his church.

May the Lord direct your steps during this wilderness period.

Zane in Tennessee

[tooaugust]

I'm not sure how it is possible to obey the NT commands to submit to the elders of the Church if you just hang out with other Christians, but are not under the accountability of those who are in authority? Do ec people believe in the authority structures of the Bible, or do they see those as cultural and tend to be egalitarian?

[matt brunton]

The question raised by tooaugust is one I've raised before. But I don't think this posting is about the "simple church" model. Bill Bean has a great post and discussion that was had a week or two ago. Broad in perspective and I think a better place to discuss simple church. Also a better place b/c I do know Bill and his group is living that church out, hammering out hard stuff, and I can say struggling well with what it means to be a church in this model.

http://bill.beanbooks.com/2005/04/10
http://bill.beanbooks.com/2005/04/13

[Jon]

As a 28-year member of Jesus People USA, I have to say this principle -- that folks attending our church services for the first or second time often want to be left alone -- is one deserving close scrutiny. It is often very, very true! What makes it hard, though, is that it is not always true. Some folks are offended if one doesn't extend an immediate hand of friendship / fellowship. I've always wished we could hand out a two-sided sign for new folks to hang around their necks. Side "A": "Hi. I'm analytical. Leave me alone and let me analyze." And Side "B": "Hi. I'm lonely. Don't leave me that way!" But of course having only two sides is a bit modernist.... hehehehehhe...

[Roger N Overton]

How does coffee and the NY Times consitute church?

[lillylewin]

ivy! i am so glad that jesus allows us to be just where we are! jesus loves us in our seasons... and i believe a season without "church commitments" is really a gift..as you may recall, i resigned from my paid church position at the end of 04 too. i have returned to worship there several times, but folks still want me to play my old role...i don't just get to worship!

for those of you who haven't worked in sunday morning churches, it gets "old" after awhile...and too often those of us in youth and children's ministry very rarely have a sunday that isn't work...we may even have to/and need to go to other churches to really worship!

it is sooo nice to get to have a sunday "off"...not to have to get up and be somewhere! i am enjoying sleeping in on some sundays, and having the opportunity to go to many different churches and seeing what the holy spirit is up to around town...
too often in church land, both paid and unpaid folks never step outside their flavor...they never take the opportunity to see what jesus is up to across town or around the corner!
and yes, being an emergent type, i do know that church is not the building and that "church" happens on other days and other times besides sunday morning!

sadly though, we don't allow folks to take a "church vacation"....

i know that right now in my life, i want to allow god the space and time to pour into my life...to turn up the soil...to plant new things...but
because i have been pouring out for so many years...i may just need to have
the ground of my life lie fallow..

enjoy your church vacation...allow god to restore your soul, through coffee, the newspaper, a walk in the park, a visit to a friend's church, a visit to the beach....
the trinity is always present wherever you are and you bring "church" with you wherever you go!
blessings friend!
lilly

[lillylewin]

ivy! i am so glad that jesus allows us to be just where we are! jesus loves us in our seasons... and i believe a season without "church commitments" is really a gift..as you may recall, i resigned from my paid church position at the end of 04 too. i have returned to worship there several times, but folks still want me to play my old role...i don't just get to worship!

for those of you who haven't worked in sunday morning churches, it gets "old" after awhile...and too often those of us in youth and children's ministry very rarely have a sunday that isn't work...we may even have to/and need to go to other churches to really worship!

it is sooo nice to get to have a sunday "off"...not to have to get up and be somewhere! i am enjoying sleeping in on some sundays, and having the opportunity to go to many different churches and seeing what the holy spirit is up to around town...
too often in church land, both paid and unpaid folks never step outside their flavor...they never take the opportunity to see what jesus is up to across town or around the corner!
and yes, being an emergent type, i do know that church is not the building and that "church" happens on other days and other times besides sunday morning!

sadly though, we don't allow folks to take a "church vacation"....

i know that right now in my life, i want to allow god the space and time to pour into my life...to turn up the soil...to plant new things...but
because i have been pouring out for so many years...i may just need to have
the ground of my life lie fallow..

enjoy your church vacation...allow god to restore your soul, through coffee, the newspaper, a walk in the park, a visit to a friend's church, a visit to the beach....
the trinity is always present wherever you are and you bring "church" with you wherever you go!
blessings friend!
lilly

[tooaugust]

Why does this all sound a little too "me"-focussed? I thought in emergent you want to get away from individual selfishness and do things out of love for the other. Are our commitments based on our personal feelings of "what we get out of it," or is it on going to love those who are there? I think if the latter, you will subsequently "get something out of it as well," so maybe the problem is not location, but mindset, no? How can separation from the body gathered to worship God through His Word in the assembly be a "gift from God?" I thought the Lord had declared not to abandon the assembly as some have done?

[matt b]

tooaugust - I am finding your comments increasingly on the lines of a "tantrum" or reactive to something that is not always in the posts or line of thinking you are commenting on.

Most people who are posting here are trying to be "real" or authentic. Part of doing that is allowing each other to be known. One thing that many in EC have done well is utilizing the internet to help get to know each other. There is a relational aspect to that. EC has a tendency to believe the internet can be a tool used to get to know each other and enhance discipling not just in ideas, but also personally. Every other posting on this particular post has a name, website, or blog by which we can better understand each other. Yet you post anonymously and sometimes with alot of animosity.

An anonymous posting, particularly of the animosity type you have been posting, become increasingly ignored because you are giving us no context to know you or who you are.

To your post - you focus on the selfish aspect of this discussion b/c you have a preconcieved notion that everybody posting as an EC has a "thinking" that is "heretical" (not biblical) and therefore selfishly. You don't see that some (if not all) have a real desire to know the real living God (Jesus/Yahwheh- I didn't want you to pull out "well which God are you referring to"). Church fathers throughout the ages have found and experienced God's grace in places other than just church alone - in relationships, in studying Scripture alone, in nature, and even in the unwitting loving acts of "non-believers." I know you know this.

You could have said something like, "I am glad to see people really want to find God, though I question some motives for not going to church. It seems we need to sometimes consider we go to church to serve others there as well. Sometimes by our acts of service, sometimes by just being faithful and obedient to go and expect God to show up. Our focus might need to be slightly changed."

And if that is what you mean, I like your comment :-)

Give us your name. Post a blog with thoughts. Let us begin to know you. Also, begin to read and know about us as more than just these "ideas" and "theological reflections." By doing that you do take a risk of people disagreeing not with your ideas but also in who you are being and they will wholeheartedly disagree and even with animosity. But by knowing "who" you are we might begin to grow some in discipling each other. (This last paragraph, I believe is some minute "essence" of the spirit of EC community - and nobody is claiming it's without flaws)

[j]

How can one " figure out what the church of the 21st century ought to be" by not being a part of it? How can someone make a difference or help make changes in the weak areas of the church by staying at home?

When you say you have an "ambiguous relationship with the church," what do you mean by "the church?" Are you speaking of a specific place of worship or the body of Christ as a whole? All believers comprise "the church." How does leaving altogether benefit either the church or you?

[Ryan Poe]

I recently left full-time employment at a large seeker-sensitive church. I have had to detach myself completely from that particular body to avoid being sucked back in to filling my previous roles. It has been a difficult process, and I'm sure that I have made mistakes along the way, but it has also allowed me to be reminded that Christ's body is larger than a single congregation. I am fortunate to have a group of fellow believers with whom I can meet with regularly and partake in Christian traditions and practices. My separation from an institutional church structure has also opened up opportunities for my to discover what Christ's church truly looks like day-to-day. My prayer is that you discover the community God wants to bless you with in whatever form or style it may exist.

Ryan Poe
www.thenamelesschurch.com

[Dan-D from Canada]

mattb- thanks for saying what lots of us were thinking. The main reason I don't post often is fear- fear that people more conservative or liberal or whatever than me will shoot me down. I has been shaping my beliefs for some time and recovering from a great deal of hurt that I experienced in the church, and I have little desire to stick my neck out so someone can slap a noose around it.

The conversation I've seen on this website and others is attractive, and I've read plenty of Mclaren's books to know that this is a practical form of Christ-following - one that I can do despite the hurt in the past. But the idea of posting here or elswhere with what I'm thinking freaks me out. So bear with me, everyone.

Ivy - I wish you all the best with finding a faith community. I myself attend a large seeker-sensitive evangelical church erratically, but my care group is my main source of fellowship, one in which I can serve and be helped. I would encourage you to consider Zane in Tennessee's advice - a house church may be the best fit for you.

Dan-D the Canadian

[Dwight]

In my experience it has been helpful at times to leave the communial body of a local church. When I had to leave other church bodies because I felt called to move on I found that it was healthier to remain out of church for several months to a year or more so that I could figure out internally what I needed. I don't mean this in a selfish way, but if one has poured a lot of energy into a place there needs to be a time to recoup and move on. There needs to be an emotional grieving for the loss of relationships that occurs.

I have found that without that time then I am more apt to begin to be a "doer" in the next place that I end up and in becoming that person I end up becoming emotionally drained and leave that place very bitter and angry.

So my question is why do some people here automatically assume that Ivy is not doing what is actually in her best interests to do, namely spend time with God in her cup of coffee and the newspaper?

Let's say that it is selfish of her. Has no one here been selfish? If she needs to be corrected I am sure there are many people in her life that know her much better than I do (I only read her book, attended her workshop at EC '03 and had a brief 5 min talk with her) that can provide that in her life.

Ivy, stay where you need to stay as long as you need to. May God guide you now and always in your life with him.

Dwight

[tooaugust]

I'm going to refrain from responding to the ad hominems, since that is all I ever get from this group. I think the problem is that you guys come from an institutional Church, a mindset that the Church is a business instead of a family. Some of you go to these massive Mega Churches that are nothing but businesses and others go to smaller Churches modeled on them. If the Church is a family and you build relationships with the elders and people, why would you take a break from your family? Your family needs you. The Father has commanded us to take care of each other and submit to your older brothers, are you obeying?
Dwight, were you rebuking us all, who you don't know either, for rebuking Ivy? Let's stop the "more tolerant than thou" stuff. It's the creed of your movement and a self-refuting one at that.

[Jim]

I have shared Ivy's experience - more than once! I have concluded that trying to "find a church" can be a futile exercise. After all, here we are struggling to define what church is, was, means, will be...and on and on. Perhaps what we really want to be doing is letting the church "find" us! Abraham was not so much searching for a God to believe in as he was open to allowing God to find and choose him. There is a certain amount of "closedness" or pre-conception in the idea of searching for a church that precludes some possibilities. It was through Ivy that I was initially exposed to the emergent conversation. I wasn't looking for it, it found me through her. It has opened me to new ideas, people and possibilities that I may never have found had I been searching for them. Maybe the deconstructing process that follows leaving a community entails cultivating a new openness, a letting go of what was before so that we can be "found", "chosen" or "selected" by the church.

[todd thomas]

i just wanted to weigh in here with a comment or two. i can understand where ivy is coming from and can understand the joy and relief of having a community in which to share things. i don't think her comments need analysis... they need empathy. there's a huge difference between asking questions to clarify her spiritual journey within common orthodoxy, or just listening to a sister trying to express the path she's on and trying to feel the pavement under her feet. ivy, i can honestly say that i love you for your honesty... thanx for sharing!

wow... that was a huge montage of buzzzzz words - joy, community, empathy, listening, journey, feeling, path, expression - too bad these things sound so alien to me.

anyway... God has recently placed me in several conversations where people have extolled me to watch out for the "slippery slopes" of any deviation from the typical orthodox answers and practices... these have been conversations in which i was able to say, "awesome! let's go sliding and see where these slopes actually lead! i mean, God might be down there waiting on us!" which i say only to try and convince myself that God might actually not only be present at the pinnacle of religious perfection, sitting cross-legged like a beneficient guru for only those who reach the top. he might be on a slope helping cushion someone's rough landing.

hey, it's late and i've almost burned my caffeine reserve... peace to you all! and the love of Christ!

[Richard Laribee]

here's my experience, for what it's worth.

a dozen or so years ago i resigned my pastorate and left the denomination i was in.

(setting: there were two reasons: first, for many years i had been trying to figure out "where i fit" or even "COULD i fit" anywhere in the church world. i had known for years that i did not share the modern paradigms, but couldn't find a reasonable alternative to what was available. (ultimately i landed in the episcopal church, which gave me the ancient liturgies plus the freedom to think, act and explore). second i really was burned out and beaten up from the nasty little wars in a congregation that had been chewing up pastors and associates for decades.)

i went immediately to the largest liturgical church i could find in the area. i remained anonymous. i was so burned out, and perhaps bitter (my wife says, "what do you mean, 'perhaps'???") that i felt nothing. i couldn't relate to the sermons. i felt pretty much like the recovering amnesiac in the early part of "the bourne identity" (the book, not the film). but i began to realize over a few months that God was present with me, even though i couldn't feel it... and that the weekly liturgy was nourishing me... even when i was too wrecked too realize it.

one of the things that became clear to me in my healing was that the church is a community, not a family. you can't be anonymous in a family -- to attempt to be anonymous in your own family entails rejection of family relationships and is perhaps even hostile. but communities are different: communities allow for all kinds of things that families don't. communities allow for friendships and families, but they also allow for anonymity. in communities you may participate in clubs and cohorts, but you may also retreat to the hospital or rehab center. you can't be an employee of the family and be part of the family, but you can be an employee AND part of the community at the same time. if i expect the church to be my family, and i don't see eye to eye with one member, we must sort it out or it wrecks the family. we may resort to therapy. but in a community, if i don't see eye to eye with one member, we don't really need to sort it out at all. we may continue to shop at the same market, gas up at the same station, attend the same theater, eat at the same restaurant, and live "in community" together peacefully, respectfully, and civilly. the unity of the community doesn't require us to be family -- just good neighbors. loving my neighbor doesn't require me to actually LIKE my neighbor -- just to be willing to behave like Christ to my neighbor.

church isn't about what i get out of it. showing up at church is a spiritual discipline, in which i show up on time before God, admitting (confessing) that i'm pretty much a screw-up longing for something, needing something, willing to let God do in me whatever is required for my own healing, and willing to submit to God's call in whatever is required for the healing of the world. for this task, a community is far superior to a family. i think if we surrender our expectation for the church to be a family, and view it as a community, we may find ourselves less disappointed and frustrated. we may also find ourselves experiencing more healing, and we may find there is a place for us to be of some use to that community and the world.

it turns out, surprise, surprise, that a congregation is a pretty good community to be part of, even if, perhaps especially if, one is a burned out, beaten up, former employee of some other congregation.

ps - after 4 years of healing and rehab in the new community, i was ordained in the new denomination. this is not because the new denomination has it together any better than the previous one (there's hardly anything in the world more goofy than my own denomination). this is because God promises to be present in any community where two or three show up in his name. the burn-out and beating up can occur anywhere, but so can the healing and the rehab!

the Lord be with you.

[Dwight]

TooAugust,

Wow! If you took my comments personally I think that speaks more about where you are at. All I asked was "So my question is why do some people here automatically assume that Ivy is not doing what is actually in her best interests to do, namely spend time with God in her cup of coffee and the newspaper?" Why do you think that tooaugust since you obviously took that as some sort of rebute. It is an honest question, but all I received for it was an honest attack.

Also I do not fit any of your attacks about what church I come from either. I also do not call myself a member of the emerging church movement so I don't exactly know who my kind are supposed to be. I belong to an Evangelical Quaker church that is roughly 300 people, most of which are related to one another. So it is both a spiritual family and has many familiar connections within it. As for obeying elders, yes I do. My wife and I recently called together a series of meetings to help us determine our call into ministry and all of the people in attendance were over 40, most in their 60's+ and all of them were either missionaries, pastors, or church leaders for 20+ years.

Did you know that Solomon's Porch and Jacob's Well were planted by mainstream denominations? McLaren's church wasn't a split off but gradually changed to a more emergent church under his direction. So in that respect those three emerging churches had the backing and support of a larger body then just 5 angry non-church attenders that decided to make a church.

Tooaugust I am very hurt by your attacks on me and everyone here. I am sorry if you took my question as an attack, it is an honest question that when answered will indicate some of your theological understanding. I personally think that one can commune with God with a cup of coffee and the NY Times. Do you not think that is true? If not, why?

Dwight

[tooaugust]

Why is everything with you people either affirmation or attack? If i don't say, "Oh, great your spitting on the Church for your own personal benefit. You go Girl!" Then I'm the devil incarnate. This is absurd.

Dwight, Quakers are in the same vein as ec, so regardless of whether you're affiliated, you would have the same ideology. My statement was not an attack. I have no idea why you interpreted it to be. My point was drawing attention to your hypocrisy for condemning others for doing the same thing you were doing. God communes with His people through His Word, not the NY Times, and the assembly exists, not just for personal growth, but to help others grow. So it is a selfish move as is common among evangelicals to think of Church as for me, and so depart from it when I don't feel like it's accomplishing my self-fulfillment.

Why do you think I'm talking about non-denominational churches? That has nothing to do with it. The Church as a business is adopted by almost every mainline denomination I know. That doesn't mean they're all bad, but it does mean that this type of thinking about the church is producing more and more ec folk, since the vast majority I have talked to have been burned by these churches, poorly taught, whipped like racing horses to perform duties, legalistic, or etc.

Richard,
the Church isn't a family? Wow. Talk about making what's descriptive prescriptive. The reason why you can be anonymous in the Church today and not have to work anything out is part of the dysfunction of the modern Church which no longer sees itself as a family.
Family is a type of community, so the one you are proposing is other than Family. Where are you getting this? How many times does the NT talk about God's community as being family versus some other form that would contradict this? Why is God called Father, fellow Christians called brothers and sisters, the community called the Household of God? Why are elders talked about as one's who manage/oversee a household? Why are we told to work things out with each other? To have the same mind? To be intimately involved in each others discipleship and growth? Why? Because we are a family, and you're right, if what I'm saying is true, then ec sees the Church as superficially as there fathers, and needs to get back to working things out with one another. Christ has not called us to have superficial connections in the sense that we live in the same area and can shop with one another. We are one as the Father is one with the Son (familial terminology again), and we are one through the truth of His Word. I'm all for going against the Churches you're talking about, but not by going against the Biblical model.

Everyone:
Maybe if you saw the Church as a family, you wouldn't take everything as an attack from an enemy. You know there is such thing as rebuke, correction, reproof, instruction--I could have swore that the Bible told us to these things with each other, and I'm also sure that many times it's going to "sound" rude and mean, but so sounded the Lord to those He rebuked. I'm pretty sure calling Peter "Satan" didn't come out of God's book on how to be nice, but it did come out of His book on how to be loving, and that is the difference. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother talking to you guys. The opposite of love is not hostility; it is apathy. Thus, I have proven by my countless hours, that I have loved you, but I have been seen as evil for it.

"He who rebukes a man will afterward find more favor than he who flatters with the tongue." Prov

[tooaugust]

BTW Dwight, this was the comment I was responding to, not the other you mentioned:

"Let's say that it is selfish of her. Has no one here been selfish? If she needs to be corrected I am sure there are many people in her life that know her much better than I do (I only read her book, attended her workshop at EC '03 and had a brief 5 min talk with her) that can provide that in her life.

Ivy, stay where you need to stay as long as you need to. May God guide you now and always in your life with him."