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Comments

Gary

It's probably best that PBS left the second part out. It would make Emergent look like a youth group for young hipsters and not to be taken seriously.

Alexis

"It would make Emergent look like a youth group for young hipsters and not to be taken seriously." You are not to be taken seriously because the emergent group is a group of disgruntled people that have issues/questions about there upbringing. You talk as Brian does in the interview about so much but say nothing, nothing at all. You make Jesus look like some kind of "Buddha". There is no truth just just "lets talk openly, let's question". How lost you are and how blind too.

Brian said that the emergent church wants to "care for the poor", well great that nice and all but why is this so important to use as a identifier of the emergent conversation? Every church no matter what denomination that I know of does that. Every church I've been part of take care of the poor. Again what a bland and empty statement.

You waist your time debating in groups and talking/questioning to land up knowing nothing and saying there is no answer. Brian again a man that has to put an image of his own face that takes up about half the cover of his book (great marketing, very brand and image conscious by the way) to sell, yes sell for money the "new way", "movement/discussion" or what ever you may call it, giving up his responsibilities to write more (sell, sell $$$$ books man) got to love it though.

Old/new? True/not true? Jesus for me, maybe Buddha for you? Church/movement? Help the poor (like every other church on the planet) new thing though, right? What a waist guys how lost you are (oh and by the way I get the "look now your able to talk just like use about your thoughts isn't that just great" and the "your a conservative Christian (I'm not by the way) and we don't want/care about you point of view because you just don't get it".

I know that every emergent person that I've run into is pompous and arrogant when they get that I'm not interested or believe in what you do/don't believe in (and you don't know what you believe because that would be to limiting I guess). Plainly put I don't see Christ in your movement and that may just be it. He is not the centre He is just an idea a concept that may or may not be "the one".

Enjoy you debates I'll sit back a see this all fade as the fad that it is. I do pray that you do find "absolute" truth in Christ Son of God (not the concept or idea you may or may not have).

ken

Alexis,

GREAT POST! I am no conservative Christian either - nor am i an "emergent" christian. But echo your thoughts exactly. Emergent is not new. It is a fad and will fade as this grown-up youth group gets older. Then some post-emergent group will come along harking some "new" message of Christ which isn't new at all. And around and around we go.

I agree with you: EMERGENT IS JUST A TRENDY FRONT USED TO SELL BOOKS AND MAKE MONEY. Well then, I guess it truly is an american endaveor, is it not?

Alexis, great insights.

ken

Geraldo

emergent is boring

Jamie Arpin-Ricci

Hey guys,

Always good to hear from emergents critics. Alexis, as posting online can be a tough medium to communicate through, I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it seemed to me that you are angry with emergent. Is this accurate? If so, why? If not, sorry for the misread.

As for emegent people being pompous and arrogant, for what it is worth, I would like to ask for your forgiveness if people in this conversation have treated you poorly or represented the conversation poorly.

Ken, the emergent conversation has been around long before the books started selling big. As to it being "new" I think the word is being misused by a lot of emergent-ers, as they are not saying the beliefs are new, but this particular movement is new, which sociologically speaking, is true.

Geraldo, sorry you find the conversation boring. What aspects do you find so? For myself, I find the dialogue refreshing, challenging and edifying.

Emergent isn't my religion, but rather a network of people who have helped me process difficult ideas and questions. God- the Trinity- remains central to me. I can claim God as an "absolute" truth in my life. Perhaps that is unemergent of me, but what they hay!

In the end, I hope you continue to visit the site(s) adding your voice and your perspective, being as willing to hear the perspective of others as you expect your positions to be heard. Thanks!

Peace,
Jamie Arpin-Ricci

Troy Bronsink

Alexis, my friend:

I too ask your forgiveness if my posture has been pompus. I can tell from your tone that these criticisms have deeply felt roots. I don't usually respond to critics on this wider board because I don't have organic relationships with most of them (y'all). But as a neighbor and friend who enjoys coffee and toasties together with you and your wife, I thought I could put this out there honoring you and your post. Perhaps this will also honor others with similar sentiments as yours?

No one faults you, Alexis, for chosing an anti-trend posture. Lord knows, I still haven't fully read the purpose driven life. As a contributor to Emergent I would be sick if we took a "calluding banwagoners only" stance. Not to mention the lack of imagination that any mass media can engender.

My experience with the freinds I've met through emergent, however, has been more like discovering a treasure in the gospel of Jesus Christ that I never knew as richly before. Sure, my wife and I have gone and bought the land that this treasure holds and are making choices about how we want to raise our daughter and live with our neighbors with this treasure in mind, but these decisions are not intended as acusations. Sure some of us in the neighborhood have chosen to make a church as an expression of putting our faith into action, but we've always wanted to promote the health of other churches in the city as well.

May you know the rich joy of being God's artwork, created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God has prepared in advance for you to do. This community of women and men seeking the way of Jesus has given me greater knowledge and joy in this area.

In terms of the person of Jesus Christ, Emergent is not looking to "market" him in non-divine terms. I have always found the person of Jesus Christ to be central to our work. Note the pages on belonging to emergent
http://www.emergentvillage.org/Site/Belong/Order/index.htm

"We understand the gospel to be centered in Jesus and his message of the kingdom of God, a message of reconciliation with God and among humanity."

My experience with the easy platonic debate attmepting to devide "absolute" truth and right-living (seeking justice) is that as liberals or conservatives we often chose the Jesus we center ourselves around. However, I think that the "you've wrongly chosen the 'left-sided' or 'right-sided' version-of-Jesus" argument is not the most applicable critique to emergent. Emergent has attempted to continually place these two (heavily marketted) versions of Jesus side by side. And in doing so have found ourselves becoming churches that seek to practice a very hard thing chosing active repentance, forgiveneess, and continual-missional-change as importaint disciplines to procede in such a Christ-centered vocation.

As the psalmist could pray that truth and justice would meet, a healthy conversation or freindship amoung people who seek to give worth to Jesus would also include an expectation that both the Jesus we are atracted to (ideologically true or absolutley just) and the one we most fear (ideologically just or absolutely true) are at least equal characterisitics of the God that contunually confronts us with and invites us into the coming kingdom.

And as far as the poor and oppressed are concerned. You're criticisms insinuate that you do agree that the gospel is good news to the poor. While I agree that there is nothing new to that (heck, Jesus even quoted Isaiah in claiming such) its not a bad point of agreement that where the church reforms and innovates it must not "forget the poor". When the second volume of Luke recounts the missionary efforts to include us gentiles in the missionally-drive of the gospel the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem insisted on this.

So I hope you continue to find strength in your journey from other communities of Christians that envigorate your imagination and body to also do justice, love mercy, and walk with humility before God. This is the reason we beleive we have found one another in this emergent thinger. These things that your and our Lord Jesus want are the dreams of God that we hope to participate in as well.


in the peace, courage, and beauty of Jesus Christ,


Jorge

Troy,

You misinterpret Alexis. Did you read his post? He didn't say that serving the poor is bad or unwanted. He said that all churches do it and for emergent to pretend like they are the only one's doing it is simply false. Go back and read Alexis' post and then critique. You are arguing a strawman.

Jorge

Dan-D from Canada

Jorge - Toy said, "You're criticisms insinuate that you do agree that the gospel is good news to the poor." Troy makes it clear that he understands Alexis is agreeing that serving the poor is good. He's not critiquing a straw person because he's not actually critiquing alexis' argument; it seems that he's just looking for common ground. Obviously Troy read alexis' post, did you read Troy's? I think it would beneficial if you gave it another look - if he was doing what you say he's doing than you would have a very valid criticism, but I think you may have missed the point.

Troy Bronsink

Jorge:

I acknowledged that Alexis is pro-service to the poor, that he sees the gospel is good news to the poor. I also read that Alexis saw this as nothing "new" but rather a charge that all churches have kept in mind without fail across time and geography. My last point was simply to point the merit of the Emergent conversation/frienships having been formed around the call toward God's future and an ackowledgement that we are not yet fully serving the poor as God dreams.

There are times in my own history as son of Dutch decent, where Christians kidnaped or sold people as labor force. There have been times in the southern US, where I am a pastor, when ways out of systems of poverty were blocked (at least one time, literally by a huge pile of dirt back in the sixties) because the haves wanted protection from the havenots dwelling on the wrong side of the tracks. And there were times when inner-city churches in the presbytery that I belong to closed their doors because the privelledged classes refused to mingle with the poorer classed neighbors who moved into the city. Historically the church has had to reprent and to innovate (to change their creative direction) toward new habits that were better responses to the gospel.

Please do not confuss my response to Alexis as assuming he is against justice and service of the poor. I know that he is. My response it to point out that we, the church, are always in need of a reminder of our charge to serve the least of these and that this charge is a great one-among-many around which to organize new forms of church. (Yet not the only charge, again, see the "belonging to the order of emergent" pages on the e.v. site)

The straw man is to argue that Emergent is only a social gospel movement marginalizing the centrality of Jesus by placing practice in front of appologetics or "absolute" dis-embodied truth. The problem as Alexis seems to propose it is that utopian liberalism is a failed ideology that diplaced Jesus Christ's lordship. I agree, but utopian liberalism is not the only kind of justice.

In Alexis' proposed construct Jesus is forced into one of two corners, either a God who taught us things we were not to practice and prayers we were not meant to mean (your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven) or a great teacher and example who is appreciated for his wisdom only. Either God or Example, impossibly both. In extensions, we, the church, are either those picked by God to recieve heaven through salvation or those seeking to bring heaven to earth without God's help but motivated by the example of "Buddah Jesus," to use Alexis' words.

Meanwhile Jesus' assertion of his own lordship is most often through "the form of a servant," his teaching most often story and parable (eastern), and his future judgement reserved for those who fail to serve the least of these.

While I agree that Rauschenbusch is dead (early 20th cent Social Gospel guy), reconciliation and social activism can also be bound to the hope of God's inbreaking kingdom in Jesus Christ and not idealology. Our church habits as practicioners of the way of Jesus can also be bound to the New Creation in Jesus that is coming closer and closer, even as I hit "post" and you read and hit "reply".

Emergent may not need to be taken serriously, I'm living with that. But but our desire to innovate and reimagine church forms in light of this very old story of the kingdom of God in Jesus is hopefully much more beautiful than disgruntled people with old issues or followers of a mysitcal figure in history or some oligarchy seeking to market ourselves for profit. Forgive us when it is not.

May all churches be pulled into deeper engagement with the ethical significance of our habits and the participation we play in God's redemptive work in creation.

Due to time constraints this will probably be my last reply, feel free to email me or come by for coffee (Alexis) if you want to talk it out any more.

toward the way of Jesus,

Troy

el mol

tired head

Dan Wilt

The authority of the emergent conversation is not in its novelty, but rather in its necessity.

Carrying themes inherent to the historic Church of care for the poor, love for our neighbor, the Story of the scriptures and the power of the Holy Spirit, emergent leaders are offering a simple gift of necessary conversation to a Church that struggles to address some of the heart issues that have accumulated in us over the last few centuries.

Brian and the emergent community have courageously stood in a place that honors the call of Jesus to a living worship, while at the same time looks with a reformer's eye toward the present posture of the Church - toward God, each other, and human beings.

We are typically thankful for the reformer's courageous spirit in hindsight, yet critical of their vocal stance in the present.

I for one am grateful that the emergent community has risen to the challenge, and in such a gracious and persevering way.

As a pastor, leader, influencer and artist, I am grateful to find many thousands of people who are wrestling with the same issues I am, and have mutually stepped forward into the light to grapple with them head on for the sake of the present and future generations of passionate Christ followers.

I might suggest that any presumption that such a rich movement is motivated by book sales smacks of a judgmentalism neither you nor I - as Christ's followers - would want to call our own.

I'd only ask you to thoroughly read a few of the books and listen to the humility in which they are offered, listen well to the global Kingdom activity inspired within Christ's Church by emergent thinkers, and reconsider your part in elevating Christ-followership with us in the 21st century.

Leroy Lamar III

What I am taking from this whole discussion is that from Troy's perspective, the emergent movement is simply a group of people discussing the outworkings of the gospel in a postmodern context. However, from the little emergent reading that I've done and the conversations I've had with those in this movement, this characterization is doesn't hold well. Primarily because the emergent community questions the doctrines of the church, Christ, God, and kingdom. Just as Jamie said, it is very un-emergent of her to hold God and the Trinity as absolutes in her life. Why would someone seeking to live out the gospel and promote the kingdom be un-emergent by holding to this two truths? These truths have been foundational to Christianity sense the beginning!

I guess part of Alexis' problem is that doesn't seem to be a foundation to this movement. The foundation is fustration. Fustration with the Church.

My question for those in the emergent movement is this: If the question you are asking is how do we effectively communicate and live the gospel today, what makes this any different from the question that every church in the world is asking? What makes this movement different and unique?

Alexis

Wow, Leroy, and Ken, you guys get it! You really do. What I was saying is just this there is nothing new about what emergent is doing! Not a thing! You think way too much about things that we all think about anyway. You feel great because you can talk about it. Well great I was always able to talk about the questions I may have had and openly too. I just didn't make it into a movement!

Jamie Arpin-Ricci,
I'm not angry and I forgive you for thinking I was.

Troy,
Tell me are you really better than the "poor". Why is it that you make the poor out to be "helpless and dump" as if you're gods given gift to the salvation of the poor. I hurts me to see how what you call "social justice" is really a front to say you poor, poor people, let us (the emergent conversation) redeem you. Wow how blind you all are and how patronizing!

Maybe you don't understand, but did you know that "the poor" are you! As the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit) say in Revelation 3:15-17 "15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." I think this says so much about the emergent conversation. You are lukewarm. "A man, who stands for nothing, falls for every thing".

By the way just some insight for Troy and Dan Wilt. How many hospitals around the world start with a St. .....? How many orphans have found a home through the "traditional" church? How many homeless have food and drink each and every day because of acts of love? How many children are adopted by Christians who love God wholly? Can you NOT SEE THE WORK OF CHRIST IN THESE ACTS OF LOVE? Wow, and you write about the Christians support of slavery (what dark view and faithless look on what God does and can, and IS doing). Wow you all really make me sad. By the way Dan, how was that statement a stamen of judgment by Troy for you?

So blind, so poor, so naked.

Troy if I'm to understand that you say that pert of what motivates you is that in the past Christians have supported slavery, am I to understand that you actively support and endorse pornography, abortion, rape etc. because it is part of today culture and you are not actively stopping it?? I'm not so ignorant. I understand that through the ages we miss the mark, all of us do. Remember the times Troy, you were not there it was the norm and MOST Christian did not participate but they did what you are doing they did nothing and in time they have been through into the general (misguided) view of the past. You really should consider not looking at the past with your "presitism" view. Dan, again where is the grace in this comment about our bother and sisters of the past. (I guess you're a little better than them right?).

Dan,
Your words were many but in good standing with emergent you were able to say very little, thanks great stuff though! I have read your books and seen video (not been to a meeting though that's why I don't get it right?) As I said before, don't really desire to be lukewarm, thanks but no thanks.

To close I was on the phone with my mom, and was chatting with her about this emergent thing, she said she was interested in reading more and would call me back. She did, laughing out loud! I said: mom what's wrong? She said: Alexis, do you know we did this too? Did what? I said. This emergent stuff. We just called it being hippies! We thought we were so smart. We knew it all, because we had open conversation we talked about the taboo stuff. We grew out of it though, we grew-up love! I got it me writing on this blog is food for you all this is what you want it makes you feel like you are getting closer. I also got that as I said in the first email (sincerely) IT A FAD. A GROWN-UP YOUTH GROUP. PRETTY WORDS NO SUBTANCE. IT'S LIKE AA FOR EX-TRADIONALIST. It's a place for people to say: "Hi I'm George, and I've been an ex-rationalist for six months now and am embracing my modernity"

Nuff said, enjoy the ride!

Ye who seeks shall find!

In Christ.

Alexis

Me

One last text I was reading, concider verse 7-9

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What is your truth are you hot or cold or just lukewarm?

Just a question for your coversations.

Jamie Arpin-Ricci

Wow Alexis, that is some very hardcore critiquing. Not sure it is accurate or even fair, but passionate indeed. However, even if emergent is an AA for ex-traditionalist, I could think of worse descriptions. If you are happy, free to ask the questions, etc. great. Not all of us have experience such freedom. I am truly glad that you have it, but try to extend some grace to those of us who have not. Just a gentle caution. Peace.

Alexis

If someone is heading into a fire do you wisper or shot-out?

I don't have it in my self but in Christ Revealed. You have it in him too if you ask for it.

I'm not triing to be harsh but I do see danger. There is absolute truth and God is at work seek him. Remeber Jesus was harsh too at times and said harsh thing alot but alway to show the danger.

Some things are just not oncourse and being without truth and foundation is a danger big one.

Rob Auld

Alexis, no one is asking for you to agree with us (bad choice of words but the best I can do). But I am asking that you give us the freedom and the grace to think about some of this stuff and see what comes of it. If modern Christianity is really the truth, wouldn't the Spirit begin to direct us all back to that?

One of my major concerns about my involvement in this conversation is I alwasy seem shy to mention that the Scripture is my norming norm (thanks to Stanley Grenz). This isn't just a philosophy, or our opinion, but I am looking at the scriptures and listening for the Spirit to speak. This conversation or movement or whatever seems to be what the scriptures and the Spirit is saying to me and a great many people.

So many people use that as a hammer to say God told me to do this so don't argue. Hopefully I'm not that naieve. I appreciate the criticism because I'm just human. Sometimes the Spirit speaks through others or sometimes I'm blind or sometimes I'm just ignorant.

As for your comments around truth, I don't think you'll find too many people denying absolute truth. Here's a very quick conversation,
Q -"There is no absolute truth."
A -"Is that absolutely true?"
Case closed, problem solved.

What we are looking at is what is aboslute truth? Where are we searching? The scriptures, tradition, service to the poor, etc. etc. All the while, I hope we're striving to be the Body of Christ. I'm sure we're (I'm) wrong about a great many things, but I know I'm passionate about this journey. I think many people who blog on this site are passionate about Christ.

Rob

Tom in LA

The one thing about the Emergent Movement/Church is that it does seem like an AA/support group for ex-traditionalists (as was mentioned earlier). The inevitable response from folks who like tradition/modern church is going to be negative.... just because some don't see it as needing to be fixed.

There will be a lot of conversation as to what is & isn't important to the Faith in the coming months & years. I'm sure that the Emergent conference in 2007 will look much different than the current planning has it looking today.

Tom in LA

The 1st PBS piece also had a piece on a town in Iowa that was heavily involved in TM (transendental meditation). Comparing the way the show produced the two pieces, Emergent came off as a bit more ethereal & "out there." I thought it was ironic.

Sorry if this was mentioned before.

tooaugust

2 Questions: Does the ec see godliness/evidence of Christ in one's life as being passionate and sincere?

Jamie, you pulled the "your critique isn't accurate" thing again, and was wondering if you could explain why her critique was inaccurate? I've been asking ecer's for the past year to say why and have gotten no response. Instead there is only this "you don't get it," "that inaccurate," etc. Can you explain? thanks

Eric Mason

I'm no ex traditionalist. But I do see the value in learning from the mistakes of the Jesus movement in the 60's and 70's. And from their successes. Perhaps in many ways the 1st century church was a grown up youth group. Since, axiomatically we know that Jesus' disciples were probably in their late teens and early 20s, it is reasonalble to assume that they were young people who were following barbarically the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This barbaric new faith ignored many of the pharisiacal restraints of the Jewish traditionalists. Reexamining their own faith in light of the messiah, revolution and the church followed this youth group into the new covenant through baptism and the new world ordered around the freedom of life in Christ. Sounds like a great model for the next millinium. Let's rediscover our barbaric faith in the emergent church.

on another note...is everything an attempt to sell a book? I bet the Jews said that about CHristianity. And the Romans too.

Alexis,
You have a great point about all the hospitals and care institutions of the traditional denominations. It;s awesome.

Alexis

tooaugust, makes my point too. EC is illusive, it does not answer questions. Brian so evidently does that throughout the video. He again and again does not answer questions strait-up. My favorite is: LAWTON: McLaren never says exactly what that better understanding might be, just as he declines to take specific stands on other controversial issues for the church, such as homosexuality.

(To McLaren): You don't seem to enjoy giving straightforward answers.

MCLAREN: Well, you know, a couple people tell me they think I'm being evasive. They think I'm a coward, I'm afraid to say what I really think. But here's the interesting thing. I don't think I'd be saying what I'm saying if I was a coward.

First of "a couple of people tell me they think I'm being evasive." He is being evasive he does not give straightforward answers (fact). Then he say something very interesting ,"They think I'm a coward, I'm afraid to say what I really think." so he can read minds now, he's a psychologist too? Wow, what a man! I don't think he's afraid of saying what he really thinks, because he himself does not KNOW what he really thinks. The whole "coward" statement is based on he's ability to read minds, hmmmm. Interesting! And in good standing with the Emergent way he IS evasive and again does not answer the question.

In the video it said: "but has no formal theological training." Maybe it would help him to get some! (By the way I don't think you need a formal theological training. I just think Brian could maybe benefit and learn to be straightforward and not as evasive.

Example 2:
LAWTON (To McLaren): Are there truths related to the faith out there that we can know, that we can be certain about?

MCLAREN: First of all, when we talk about faith, the word "faith" and the word "certainty," we've got a whole lot of problems there. What do we mean by "certainty"? If I could substitute the word "confidence," I'd say, yes, I think there are things we can be confident about, and those are the things we have to really work with.

Wow, this one is really good. He says let talk about the words "Faith" and "certainty". He never talks about faith at all and goes off on the "certainty/confidence" thing. Never talks about faith, as if to say that faith is covered in his certainty/confidence blabber. For him let's look at the word "certainty" it means:

1. Definite; fixed: set aside a certain sum each week.
2. Sure to come or happen; inevitable: certain success.
3. Established beyond doubt or question; indisputable: What is certain is that every effect must have a cause.
4. Capable of being relied on; dependable: a quick and certain remedy.
5. Having or showing confidence; assured.

He replaces it with the word "confidence"

1. Trust or faith in a person or thing.
2. A trusting relationship: I took them into my confidence.
3.
1. That which is confided; a secret: A friend does not betray confidences.
2. A feeling of assurance that a confidant will keep a secret: I am telling you this in strict confidence.
4. A feeling of assurance, especially of self-assurance.
5. The state or quality of being certain: I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

Then the word "faith"

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. Often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

He does not touch the faith word because it does mean "A set of principles or beliefs" or "The body of dogma of a religion" I understand that, we would not want that now, right! Then the confidence over certainty thing. He says to the world he again does not know anything to be true he just feels it.

He'd rather feel confident than know. (by the way we did a study for a magazine "family life" in RSA years ago and found that a vast number of divorced people based there relationship on the word "feel/feelings and that most people that were happy in there marriages used words like "I know he/she loves me" "I know her/him" Just interesting in this context, I think.

What about scripture on this. Where Brian says "and the word "certainty," we've got a whole lot of problems there." how about: Luke 1:4
so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. Or
John 17:8
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. Or maybe:
2 Peter 1:19-21 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Brian would do well, to get training of some sort one that would help him be more certain about what he believes. And lastly again NOT BE CAUGHT LUKEWARM.

Alexis

tooaugust, makes my point too. EC is illusive, it does not answer questions. Brian so evidently does that throughout the video. He again and again does not answer questions strait-up. My favorite is: KIM LAWTON: McLaren never says exactly what that better understanding might be, just as he declines to take specific stands on other controversial issues for the church, such as homosexuality.

(To McLaren): You don't seem to enjoy giving straightforward answers.

MCLAREN: Well, you know, a couple people tell me they think I'm being evasive. They think I'm a coward, I'm afraid to say what I really think. But here's the interesting thing. I don't think I'd be saying what I'm saying if I was a coward.

First of "a couple of people tell me they think I'm being evasive." He is being evasive he does not give straightforward answers (fact). Then he say something very interesting ,"They think I'm a coward, I'm afraid to say what I really think." so he can read minds now, he's a psychologist too? Wow, what a man! I don't think he's afraid of saying what he really thinks, because he himself does not KNOW what he really thinks. The whole "coward" statement is based on he's ability to read minds, hmmmm. Interesting! And in good standing with the Emergent way he IS evasive and again does not answer the question.

In the video it said: "but has no formal theological training." Maybe it would help him to get some! (By the way I don't think you need a formal theological training. I just think Brian could maybe benefit and learn to be straightforward and not as evasive.

Example 2:
LAWTON (To McLaren): Are there truths related to the faith out there that we can know, that we can be certain about?

MCLAREN: First of all, when we talk about faith, the word "faith" and the word "certainty," we've got a whole lot of problems there. What do we mean by "certainty"? If I could substitute the word "confidence," I'd say, yes, I think there are things we can be confident about, and those are the things we have to really work with.

Wow, this one is really good. He says let talk about the words "Faith" and "certainty". He never talks about faith at all and goes off on the "certainty/confidence" thing. Never talks about faith, as if to say that faith is covered in his certainty/confidence blabber. For him let's look at the word "certainty" it means:

1. Definite; fixed: set aside a certain sum each week.
2. Sure to come or happen; inevitable: certain success.
3. Established beyond doubt or question; indisputable: What is certain is that every effect must have a cause.
4. Capable of being relied on; dependable: a quick and certain remedy.
5. Having or showing confidence; assured.

He replaces it with the word "confidence"

1. Trust or faith in a person or thing.
2. A trusting relationship: I took them into my confidence.
3.
1. That which is confided; a secret: A friend does not betray confidences.
2. A feeling of assurance that a confidant will keep a secret: I am telling you this in strict confidence.
4. A feeling of assurance, especially of self-assurance.
5. The state or quality of being certain: I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

Then the word "faith"

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. Often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

He does not touch the faith word because it does mean "A set of principles or beliefs" or "The body of dogma of a religion" I understand that, we would not want that now, right! Then the confidence over certainty thing. He says to the world he again does not know anything to be true he just feels it.

He'd rather feel confident than know. (by the way we did a study for a magazine "family life" in RSA years ago and found that a vast number of divorced people based there relationship on the word "feel/feelings and that most people that were happy in there marriages used words like "I know he/she loves me" "I know her/him" Just interesting in this context, I think.

What about scripture on this. Where Brian says "and the word "certainty," we've got a whole lot of problems there." how about: Luke 1:4
so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. Or
John 17:8
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. Or maybe:
2 Peter 1:19-21 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Brian would do well, to get training of some sort one that would help him be more certain about what he believes. And lastly again NOT BE CAUGHT LUKEWARM.

Jeramiah

i agree with alexis -

EMERGENT IS A GROWN-UP YOUTH GROUP THAT NEEDS TO GROW UP.

so GROW UP! and stop being hippies, or revivalists, or protestant protestansts, or whatever....grow up hipsters. IT's a fad. Grow up!

Emergent is nothing new. If Emergent is just a conversation then it is nothing new. conversation and dialogue are as old as Plato and Socrates. Are they emergent too? What the hell is emergent anyway.

I am starting a new movement, but iti is just a conversation. It is for all the people who have grown out of emergent. We are called post-emergent christians. Come to my website and participate in this exciting movement, i mean conversation...it will change the world. We are the first ever to do this.

Grow up, all of you

Jeramiah

Napolean

Emergent is for evangelicals who want to be catholic but they don't want to be called catholic so they make up some lame name and call it "emergent." But we all know what it is. A Rose smells just as sweet by any other name. You don't fool any one.

Napolean

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